In the new term of the Sejm, you took over the position of chairman of the Sejm’s committee on digitalization, innovation and new technologies. What are the current most important priorities in the Polish state’s digitalization policy?
First of all, we need to focus on the issue of network security and digital security. I agree with the Minister of Digitization Krzysztof Gawkowski that this is currently an extremely important issue. The case of using Pegasus has shown that we may be dealing with clear state interference in our data. The state cannot allow this. A digital user must have a sense of privacy that is protected, and not threatened by the authorities. We will try to protect each of us at the legal level, because we are all users of the network. Citizens want their data to be safe and expect us, politicians, to guarantee full security from the state. This is a matter of both security and the right to privacy.
How do you assess Polish regulations in this area compared to other countries?
I think that in terms of protecting the security of digital users, we are at an average level. The Pegasus case showed that those in power can use (it remains to be seen to what extent this happened) our data and the tools they have. This applies to any option in power. No one should use the tools the state has at its disposal illegally.
Experts point out that Poland is behind in implementing many EU directives related to cybersecurity. These include the European Communications Code and the NIS2 directive. Do you expect these regulations to be implemented soon? What is their significance in the area of Polish cybersecurity?
Their significance is considerable, but I am not an advocate of thoughtless adaptation to directives and doing something by force. We should first and foremost take care of the safety of users and Poles in the digital world. The European Union should not force this on us. We ourselves should be aware of this – as a government, members of parliament, and strive to ensure that Polish users are safe.
How do you assess progress in the area of digitalization in terms of contact between citizens and public institutions and business and the state? What should be improved so that entrepreneurs and citizens are more satisfied with this contact and it is easier?
There is unfortunately a lot to improve here. I have just met with the medical industry, with representatives of chambers, associations and non-governmental organisations. Digital technology is highly developed in this area in Poland, but there is a lack of administrative coordination – starting from the very district, commune or province level, e.g. concerning hospital management. Administrative management is at a very poor level in Poland. It is necessary to prove that digitisation, including in the medical industry, is of great importance both for the health and safety of Poles, but also for the so-called health of the economy. A lot can be saved thanks to appropriate administrative coordination of digitisation, also in local governments. I come from local government, that is where I started my political career. Not long ago I was the deputy head of the district and there we also introduced, to the extent possible, digitisation processes. However, initiatives in this area should come from the central level. However, I have the impression that Polish local governments do not use the available digital possibilities, because certain stereotypes are still present among the authorities. Maybe generational changes are needed. We will see what the April elections will bring. As representatives of the Confederation, we will clearly state that Polish local governments should be digitized and life for Poles at this level should be made easier.
You mentioned healthcare. Experts in this area talk about the neglect associated with work on electronic medical records. What challenges do you see related to digitalization in healthcare?
First of all, education within the medical industry is necessary. I mean here functional people managing hospitals and clinics. There is no such thing in the Polish healthcare service as coordination of test results, i.e. centralization of access to these documents – test results, imaging tests. This is primarily to the detriment of the patient, but also to the Polish taxpayer. After all, all this costs money. It is unimaginable that when we perform, for example, imaging tests in a hospital in Lublin and are admitted to a hospital in Bydgoszcz two months later, we do not have access to the full history of medical documentation there. If the patient does not take it in a file, the doctor in Bydgoszcz will simply not have access to it. It is unimaginable in today’s world that we do not have such a common database. The doctor should log into the patient’s account and have access to all of their data. We are talking about the public healthcare service, but this should also apply to the private one. Doctors from the public healthcare service could also have access to the results of tests performed commercially. However, many hospital directors are not aware that the system can function differently. They only look at their unit, not more broadly. But it is our task, as members of the parliamentary digitalization and health committees, to change this; to coordinate these issues. I am full of hope that in this term, among other things, we will implement such a solution with joint forces, because there is an openness of all political forces to develop digitalization in the medical area.
The Sejm Digital Affairs Committee has recently opened up to the voices of non-governmental organizations. In January, the Law for Development Forum, together with 10 other organizations from the digital sector, presented a report at the committee meeting with recommendations for the ministry regarding the state’s digitalization policy. There were many proposals related to facilitating contact between state institutions and entrepreneurs. One of the ideas is to increase the coordination of this policy at the central level, with an increased role in this process for the Minister of Digital Affairs as the main coordinator of this process on a national scale. What do you think about this idea?
We want to make life easier for local government officials, show that it can be done differently. However, from the central level, after these few months of performing the function, I see that it is not about having some kind of management oversight over it, but more coordination, support. My experience shows that the central capabilities are different from the local ones and we should help local government officials as much as we can. Hence the planned presence of the commission members at the March Local Government Forum in Mikołajki. We will talk about this there. We want to encourage non-governmental organizations, associations, chambers to submit their comments and proposals, which is why we have opened the work of the digitization commission to the social side. We want to create a platform for the exchange of ideas and experiences. We are not afraid of the social side presenting its opinion and views. Because who could have better ones? These are experienced professionals from various industries.
In the current government, the Minister of Digital Affairs is the Deputy Prime Minister. Does this mean that the issue of digital affairs has been raised in the government’s priorities?
I have such great hope and I have had such an impression from the very beginning. This also does not come from nowhere. The modern world is increasingly digital, it is a world of artificial intelligence. These issues are currently on the so-called wallpaper. Minister Gawkowski and his ministry have a lot of work ahead of them.
One of the recommendations of experts presented during the January digitalization commission was the postulate that the minister of digitalization in the rank of deputy prime minister should be a kind of coordinator of the country’s digitalization process at both the central and local government level – a CIO (Chief Information Officer) – like in large companies. Is that a good idea?
Such a central coordinator is needed, but only so that this coordinator does not become an executioner. It is good if it is coordination, not coercion. Not control, but suggestions and coordination of work in this direction, so that local governments can freely enter the digital world – without coercion, voluntarily and openly, through education and conversation, such as with the medical industry, with directors, with medical units. Their presence is essential at various forums and conferences on digitalization.
What changes do you think are necessary from the point of view of Polish business to make greater use of digitalization?
The digitalization of offices is key. Virtually every business has some contact with offices – municipal, district or central. Facilitating business through digital administration will allow for greater freedom of action and will result in easier access to e-services, including administrative ones, which will save time for every entrepreneur, from the micro to large corporations.
For example, are you talking about improving the e-delivery service?
Not only that. This is just one of the points of the so-called e-service. This includes the mObywatel application, which also applies to entrepreneurs, and qualified signatures that are used. We have indeed made considerable progress here, as evidenced by mObywatel, while e-service was a crutch around the previous government’s leg. It was supposed to be implemented quickly, but it took several years and a statutory monopoly of Poczta Polska was introduced. This is unacceptable, as I said at one of the Sejm sessions. It cannot be the case that Poczta Polska is a monopolist in this type of service and it costs over PLN 4 net, and on the market PLN 1.2–1.3. The time it took to implement this service was a failure of the previous government.
What about the e-invoicing system that entrepreneurs are afraid of?
In my opinion, as a libertarian, we cannot apply digital coercion to the average Joe. We should encourage this type of solution. If there are companies that are unable to adapt, e.g. sole proprietorships or elderly people who would be forced to use the e-invoice system, then we should not implement coercion for this type of solution. And if it does come to that and there is such a need, for example on the part of the European Union, then we should extend the introduction of these procedures in time as much as possible, and above all, enable all Polish companies to adapt to them.
The government decided to suspend the “Laptop for Students” program. It motivated this more by issues of abuse in its implementation. However, there are also arguments that the very idea of the program, which involves exposing children to the digital world by giving them laptops, is harmful. What is your opinion on this matter?
I wouldn’t link the digitalization of our youth to whether we hand out laptops. I myself work very little on a laptop, there are other devices for work. We have smartphones that give a lot of possibilities, there are e-books. You don’t need a laptop to enter the digital world. I am a supporter of the digitalization of our society – including the young – but you have to maintain balance and common sense. Teachers, and above all parents, should decide how their children will move around the digital world. As a Confederation, for many years we have had a postulate to introduce an educational voucher, which will support competition in education and the choice of school by parents. It is the parent who should decide about the choice of school, about whether to send their child to a school where, for example, the use of smartphones is prohibited.
Many countries, such as Norway and the Netherlands, are banning the use of mobile phones in schools…
I am not a supporter of any bans. If such a ban were to be introduced, it would be by a parent, not a ministry or even a school. Schools could have such a right if a parent had the right to send their children to another school that does not prohibit it. This is our philosophy. The same applies to the ban on homework. Opinions in society are divided on this matter. The Ministry of Education should not decide on this matter, but the school, and the parent should have the right to choose the school.
What is the work plan of the Digitalization Commission in the near future? What are the most important challenges you see in the near future in terms of digitalization?
Artificial intelligence is a very important issue. We have established a subcommittee for artificial intelligence, the chairman of which is my deputy in the committee, MP Grzegorz Napieralski. I am also a member of this subcommittee. The subject is very open and completely unregulated in terms of legislation, so it must be dealt with as soon as possible. We will also emphasize openness to the social side. In the near future, we will also meet with local government officials to talk about the digitization of local governments.
He was talking Konrad RAJCA